Kitchen Talk

And where do you live? Actually, where do you live? Which university are you in at the moment?

I’m at Newcastle University. So, I’m in northeast of England. And so, can still get very good ingredients.

Newcastle is not the typical English, what you would expect in England?

Well, I mean, you find, actually in England, you find some very interesting cuisine, some very interesting food, which sadly is not very well known outside of England, but you can find also all sorts of ingredients nowadays. So, if you want to cook something exotic, you can do that.

So, spaghetti pomodoro. And this is something, is it kind of a family tradition to cook? Are you a foodie? You are obviously a foodie guy.

Yes, I am a foodie guy, but I became a cook actually when I went to the States to do my main PhD because before that, when I lived at home, I had no kitchen rights.

It’s the mama in the kitchen.

Exactly. Basically, I observed a lot. I observed a lot, but I didn’t cook very much, but then I had to feed myself. 

And you didn’t go to the normal fast food ?

No, no, no, no.

You know, fast food places?

Establishments.

And is there anything like food wise, you would say, are you more Greek or Italian?

It’s a hybrid. That’s sometimes, you know, I don’t know what I am, but see, I don’t feel as a foreigner in Italy when I’m in Italy, even though I didn’t grow up in Italy. But, also feel at home in Greece. So, it’s very strange. And also since I started learning German when I was four, I feel very comfortable in Germany as well.

And why did you learn German when you were four?

They sent me to a school that teaches German as well. 

But when I cook, I cook all sorts of both Greek and Italian. Thank you. And I mean, we have a tradition now at home in England that every Saturday I make pizza from scratch. So, I have my own starter, the Sauerteig (sourdough), and then we just make pizza.

Oh, cool. The Sauerteig pizza, which is, well, you have the…

The starter.

But it’s like, that is very Italian, is it? Or because some people have the yeast.

The yeast. The dry yeast.

So, the dry yeast I use the starter with. That’s a project that started in the pandemic. So, we thought, we need bread and it was a bit difficult to find things. Dry yeast had disappeared at some point.

That’s true.

So, we thought, okay, let’s try this. We did tried and it worked. So, it’s been now going on for a few years and it’s still alive and thriving.

And that’s so funny because I have talked to some fellows before, the one was American, the other one was German. They were very traditional, growing up traditionally in their own culture. And now you’re, you’re like basically…

A cultural hybrid. 

In a way. And do you think the cultural hybridity, is it the right word?

I think so.

Is it what you take even into your studies because you’re like more open-minded?

I think somehow it helps because we’re kind of programmed to expect interactions. And even sometimes things that seem to be very similar and very uniform, when you actually start digging, they’re not so, so uniform. You see that also in words that seem to be related, but then turn out not to be related and things that are so unrelated that if you dig a bit deeper, they are connected.

So, and that happens also with the literature. You know, as I said, they are working on Apollonius, but he worked in Egypt that was conquered by the Greeks after Alexander. But then obviously there was an indigenous population with their own literature, own kind of literary forms, cultural genres and so on.

And, and this is not lost on him. They kind of negotiate all of this together. So, I think, somehow that does work, that does flow into my work. Probably subconsciously. I’ve never actually consciously thought about this, but I think it must have been happening.

Because if you’re growing up with an Italian mother, which is probably very strong mama in a way.

I mean, she’s a big proponent of food. 

Like if we go, so it’s that the food influence is probably more Italian, and it probably sets some kind of mindset as well. I don’t know about the Greek mothers in the kitchen. They’re probably in their way. 

They’re also very giving with food.

And, is there anything you took from your home, which is Newcastle, or is there anything like Greek or Italian food you have always with you? Or at home?

Well, I always, I didn’t bring it from Newcastle. It was a bit difficult, actually I did bring something, a Greek coffee.

Greek coffee.

Which is a coffee, a form of coffee we call Greek, but the Turks call it Turkish. The Romanians, probably Romanian. You find it also in Egypt. It’s the kind of coffee that you boil.

And you just pour, it’s like espresso.

It’s not like espresso, it’s unfiltered. So, there is a sediment that you have to make sure you don’t drink. You have to let it sit first and not drink that, which is sort of like mud. I took that. Hang on that. I make sure I always buy feta cheese.

Like feta cheese. There is, in Germany, you have the white cheese, which is cow’s cheese. Then you have the feta only with sheep’s milk or like the mixed goats and sheep’s milk. Which is your feta?

Well, I found at the supermarket, actually a brand that you find also in Greece. So, I bought that one. I think Olympus is called. 

This is probably goats, goat’s and sheep’s milk.

I think it’s a combination.

Actually for the listeners, if you didn’t see it, we laid out or spread out the filo sheets.

So they could dry out for a few minutes or for a half an hour or so.

This is called, Portokalopita. So portocal is orange and pita is pie. So, an orange pie. But this also goes by the name Patsavouropita, which can be both, savory with cheese or sweet like this one. Now Patsavour is an interesting word because it really means a rag, like a piece of cloth – ‘Lappen’.

It’s an interesting word because it comes actually from Venetian from spazzatura, which is really sweeping, so trash. So, something that you actually want to throw away. And this is actually how we’re going to treat the filo leaves as if they were like kind old rags that you’re crumpling and then throw away.

So how long have you been in Newcastle? 

Seven years now.

Do you miss anything like from your home?

Well, I miss the sun. But the good thing is that Newcastle, where I live in North Shields, it’s very close to the sea. But I never swim there. But I also miss actually swimming in the Mediterranean Sea. So, I always have to go back and enjoy the sun and swim and then return.

And the food?

That goes without saying.

What I asked all the others too: Is there anything you wouldn’t eat?

Oh yes. A few, very few things. I generally am a very easygoing, I think, I hope. But I don’t eat snails. I don’t eat a lot of the seafood, like mussels, oysters. I think, the one thing that I could not, would not eat, is snails.

Yeah, I can understand that.

And I know some people find them a delicacy and I respect that. I just never had that.

I remember my parents really liked that. It’s like really kind of an 80s thing like with herb butter, garlic butter and everything. And I was always the one with the toast, digging in the butter, but never eating snails. So, I can really relate to that.

Is there anything from your experience in Hamburg so far that you would say you’d take with you – food-wise – from Germany or even from Hamburg that you said, I’ve never eaten that before? And you say “If I go back to Newcastle or even later on, I will always have something from Germany with me”?

No, what  didn’t have in Hamburg is Rouladen. That’s something that I remember actually from my days in Heidelberg. Actually what I will miss is your cooking.

And, I was in some restaurants here and had a nice fish. 

But the other thing I noticed here in Hamburg is that there is culinary diversity. I’ve been to Georgian restaurants and there have been some Italian restaurants, a few Indian restaurants, also restaurants with typical Northern German cuisine. So that’s been very nice.

So, you’re basically the Italian Greek in England. And do you think you took some of your cultural upbringings with you, or take it with you wherever you go? Like the tomato sauce for you?

Yes, the tomato sauce. That has become something that needs to happen every year and there are certain things, if we have a larger party, that I like to make arancini, these Sicilian kind of rice balls. And then there is actually a grammatical dispute if it’s Arancini, or Arancini it is masculine or feminine? Depending on where you are from. And a different shape, and they look like Etna, or they look completely round. So, there are issues there. So that’s something that I like to do.

So certain things that then keep coming back, or savory pies with my own filo and things like that. But then I’m also very open to see. When I went to the UK, I had never lived in the UK.

So, I was very curious about the food, because I knew what everybody knows. The average person knows about it. But then going there, I realized that there is so much more. Like fish dishes with milk and things like that. And of course, there was Scottish food, and that was very nice. So basically, now I try to do a variety of things, so it doesn’t become so boring. But also, there are certain things that keep coming back, because I grew up with them.

That’s the thing. And you grew up with… Which is really funny, because you grew up in Greece ?

Yes, in Athens.

But you took with you your Italian roots, with your mother’s cooking. So even though you’re Greek, you’re probably, in your mind, in your culinary mind, you’re probably more Italian than you think.

Yes, some of it. Sometimes I think we have different personas, I guess. And sometimes, it depends also on the occasion, because in some occasions I would probably make lamb or goat, as we did also in the wine tastings here. And in other occasions, I might do something more Italian. As I said, Saturdays we have this tradition, we make pizza. Sometimes it’s actually random, there is no pattern to it. It’s what we feel like.

So, when you’re going back to Newcastle. Is it in the summer? How long are you staying here for?

Until the end of June.

So really the end of the program.

Exactly. So, the summer, probably stay there for a bit. Then go to Greece.

It’s like your usual summer go to place – Greece? To see your family?

Usually, we go to Greece for some time. And then of course it’s very tricky because it can be very hot. Good thing about being an academic is that we can travel. Also during the rest of the year. Well, you have to accommodate it with teaching. Always conferences people invite you to give a talk somewhere. So, you can travel a little bit. And see other places for work. But then you also get to see something different. So that breaks up kind of the routine.

There’s something I ask everyone. If you could have a dinner date with somebody. Even fictional or dead. Or alive, even. Who would it be? You’d go to dinner with? Like an interesting, Or funny Inspiring dinner date?

The question is – Would they want to go to dinner with me?

Well. They will.

Okay. Because they have no choice. This is actually inspired by an ancient text that I really like. By Lucian – True History. Where a lot of things happen. And then, the narrator ends up meeting Homer in the Isles of the Blessed and asks him: “Did you actually compose, both the Iliad and the Odyssey? Why did you start with the word ‘Wrath’ in the Iliad.”

So, I would actually like to meet Homer. Not to ask him all these questions. But also. Just to, spite those who don’t believe that Homer existed. So just, you know, here, I’m having dinner with him. Otherwise, I also like many composers. Or other kind of literary figures that one could meet. But. I’ve never thought actually about this. But I mean Homer. Or Hesiod. Because they are poets. is a traditional scholarship. That is the voice of tradition. That didn’t exist, they are just the name attached to a tradition. And so you can disprove them. Here we’re having dinner with the man himself.

It’s a difficult thing. Because, how do you call something, because it doesn’t have flour.

Well, it has.

It has indirectly. But it’s not the traditional. Sort of… Like a sponge cake ..Or something like that. We call it a pita. Which is pie. But when you say pie. People will think of other things. 

We call it orange pie. So…

So, it’s orange pie.

It’s Greek. So it’s weird.

What will you miss the most, when you leave the HIAS Community?

Well, I already mentioned something. Your cooking. There is an interdisciplinary atmosphere here, that is actually, genuinely, interdisciplinary.

And it’s something that I’ve talked about with colleagues before. That nowadays, everybody speaks about interdisciplinarity. Universities urge you to teach and research is interdisciplinary, and so on. But, the first time where I could actually do this was here. I’m actually working on a paper with Marc [Thorsten Hütt- HIAS Fellow – Link]. 

Unplanned?

It was unplanned. I didn’t know him before I came here. And he’s a natural scientist working on networks. And there was a spontaneous idea we had here. It would only happen here. So, it was also a coincidence that we both got accepted in the same year. We are in the same cohort. And we would both like to talk. So, it’s something that I’ll miss. But also, the conviviality that exists here. That we meet and talk over dinner or coffee.

That’s what I just wanted to ask – Do you think that it’s got a positive impact. To sit down. Like to have this regular meal together.

Yes. Oh yeah. 

You know the difference, I think. We were just talking today about the difference between somebody who actually comes here and cooks for you. And makes you feel at home. Or like going out to lunch, having a catering company. Which is cool as well. It’s not about me. But it’s about the feeling. And the feeling you have. If somebody’s here. Actually cooking for you. Always the same person, not always, but most of the time.

You know. Because this, then becomes part of a ritual. That we have these meals. And somebody cooks for us. And you know this person doesn’t just cook for us. She puts an effort also. In the presentation of things you can see the care that goes into this.

And I think it creates a different atmosphere. You feel at home. And I think it’s more personal than getting some nice catered food and eating. Because it’s not just really about eating. Right. I mean, it’s about what happens around food.

Yeah. The community, The socializing. And then. I think you feel relaxed in a nice atmosphere. There’s the talks that develop around those kind of dinners, lunches, or whatever.

The fact that there’s a coffee maker. People will go and have coffee. And then you meet people in the kitchenette. And you talk. Because it’s very easy that you have a year or a semester somewhere. You can do your work. It can be very productive. But I could really do such a thing also in my study, at home, I don’t need to be here. But then you know while in this everything else that arise. So the fact that we’re playing music with colleagues. That’s also something that happens here. It’s very important. I think basically, the food, the conviviality is something that helps build, a kind of sense of a cohort. That you’re there with colleagues together who work on different things. Whom, In the normal kind of academic business, you may not have met, if we all hadn’t been here.

But here we are, and we met. And it’s been extremely interesting and thought-provoking. And I’ve been learning a lot from colleagues. Subjects that I know nothing about. That’s the good thing about it. Well, now I know something about other things.

Is there anything you have in your fridge all the time?

Yes. I always have some kind of cheese. There is yogurt and there is wine.

Oh, red or white? Or both? No, in your fridge, you probably have white wine.

It’s white or rosé. I keep some red somewhere else, but yeah, some wine.

Do you drink German beer?

I’m not really into beer so much, but when I do drink beer, I do appreciate German beer.

So, it’s like you probably wouldn’t take with you beer thing, but it’s like something you enjoy when you’re here? Or like when I’m in Italy, I probably enjoy the pasta more when I, you know.

No, but generally when I’m out, I’m not going to order beer. I generally don’t order beer. Not because I don’t like beer. It’s like it’s just… Just like wine more.

Is there anything you would take, you will take with you like physically when you go back to Newcastle? Because you’re not going, obviously not going back to Greece apart from holiday.

I think I probably would get some German wine. Some good Riesling.

Athanasios, thank you so much for being here with me, for cooking with me, for sharing your recipe, one of your favorite home-cooked dishes. And I really enjoyed the afternoon with you.

And so we have to taste the cake later on, And I hope you take back some nice memories from your staying here at HIAS, and thank you so much for being here.

Well, thank you very much for the invitation. It was a pleasure cooking with you and talking, and I really love this format, and we should do this again. With arancini. Obviously, I will take with me definitely the conviviality, the fine cooking, the memories of this fine cooking, and there’s still a couple of months left in the fellowship, so…

Maybe we get the chance to do it again.

Yes.

Anytime.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

If you’re normally used to the Greek coffee, would you like some other coffee?

I like espresso.

Espresso.

I have a big collection of Bialetti makers, espresso makers in Newcastle. Different sizes. 

And then somehow people know that I like Bialetti machines, espresso, mochas. So, they keep giving me more. So that’s great. I’ve never said no.

You can never have enough coffee makers.

And so I do also espresso. That’s basically it.